Everything Im writing here is based on my personal opinion from info Ive read and from personal trial and error.
Ive done many cycles that did not include HCG in my early days, hell I didn't even know what PCT was. This was WAY before the internet so all my info was from freinds and the few books that were around.
I've done cycles that ended with just using HCG the 2wks after my last testE shot and saw results from that(1,000ius 2xwk/ 2wks). IMO never go over 2,000ius per week.
But in 2005 I started using small amounts of HCG throughout the cycle with much better results. The theory behind this is to give constant stimulation throughout the cycle and not let your own test production stop, or at least minimize it. Ive also noticed my sex drive stayed constant while on HCG even when using Tren or Npp/Deca and doing very long cycles. This is without a doubt the best way to run it and IMO leads to better overall gains, reason is not only are you using artificial Test/AAS but you are still producing your own, to me this makes since.
There are 3 ways to use this method. note: always use the LEAST amount that you can get results from.
1) 100ius ED starting after wk1 and continued through cycle and for 4-18days after last AAS shot depending on the ester length (prop 3days - testE 14days - test Cyp 18days). Always make the last HCG shot on day ester clears.
2) 250-300ius EOD or 2xwk and (same as above)
3) 500ius E5D starting after wk1 and (same as above)
Ive done all and really can't say one is better, with #2-3 you won't go through as many needles
but all have worked well for me.
PCT ( post cycle therapy )
Key word here is POST, meaning after the cycle is over and that means after all AAS esters have cleared your system not after your final shot.
HCG IS NOT FOR PCT IT IS FOR PRE-PCT, the time during your cycle and after last shot of AAS while esters are clearing. PCT starts on DAY4 after your last HCG shot. The reason for this is when you inject HCG you will get a spike several hours after shot and then again 48-72 hours later, after this final spike is when you want to start your PCT. Again HCG is not used for PCT.
Most my PCTs have looked like this. Starting on day4 after last HCG shot. Start your clomid and nolva on the same day but always run your nolva at least a 1-2 wks longer
3-4wks of clomid @ 50mg ed (in my early days Ive used higher amounts but feel its not needed)
5-6wks of nolva @ 40mg ed 2wks and 20mg ed for remainder
IMO a PCT should last at least 4-6wks+
Also there seems to be great alternative to clomid/nolva these days, some are available here on OLM.
Here's another PCT that a member here uses with good success.
Now there's a couple different protocols in running toremifene. I like to run mine a little longer than some as I believe it is beneficial, also because of toremifene's safety profile. Also it has been determined that 120mg torem is roughly equivelent to 40mg nolvadex. Here's how I'm running mine.
week 1: 120mg
week 2: 120mg
week 3: 90mg
week 4: 90mg
week 5: 60mg
week 6: 60mg
week 7: 60mg
Hope this helps.
Nixon[/QUOTE]
Other info you will need.
Always use Bac water to mix your HCG, it will last up to 60 days in the fridge when BW is used. I never read any reason to store HCG p0wder in fridge. A cool dark place is fine.
With smaller amps/vials of under 5000ius ie 1500iu amps the water that comes with it is fine(up to 30days)
Always use an insulin needle for injecting, size of slinpin does not matter but I use 29/30g 1cc.
MIXING
Use the bacwater, draw out 1cc BW(use a 1cc slinpin #10-100) and slowly add to p0wder and gently swirl till mixed. Then draw out mixture(if in an amp. If already in a vial just refrigerate) with 1.5" needle and inject into vial or leave in syringe and refrigerate. If you add 1cc to 5000ius then every 10mark on your 1cc slinpin will be 500ius of HCG (use E5D) if you want to use 250ius EOD then mix 2cc's BW into p0wder and then every 10mark will have 250ius.
INJECTING
You can do either IM in small lean muscles like delts, tri's etc.
Or subQ between skin/fat and muscle. Pinch skin and pull up and inject HCG into open pocket between. Use a .5" insulin needle.
__________________
Now like I said this is my personal opinion on HCG.
Can you get by without HCG, sure.
Can you get by without PCT, sure
Can you build muscle without AAS, yes.
But if your going to spent your hard earned $$ on AAS, food and training then at least spend a little extra on trying to keep as much of those gains as possible and make recovery as easy as possible................11
This is where I originally got my HCG info from. He was member of a board I used to frequent and a TRT doctor
My PCT Protocol
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.
Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!
Here it is:
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
Little HCG experiment I did
As most of you know I'm on testE and HCG year round along with other gear throughout the year.
The last couple years I've seen posts and read stuff about guys worrying or claiming that using HCG for long periods of time desensitizes you to HCG and will shut you down permanently.
I never believed this to be true especially at the low doses we use.
Recently I decided to do a little experiment on myself (love being a guinea pig)
Back in Oct I quit using HCG but of course stayed on gear, within a week my boys started to atrophy and stayed that while I was off, goal was 3 months. After I was convinced this theory was false I got back on using 500ius EOD for 4 shots then back on my normal E5D rutine. After my 3rd shot my boys were back at full speed and remain that way.
My sticky is based on using small amounts of HCG throughout your cycle no matter the length right up to PCT but for you guys that are on full time IMO you have nothing to worry about using HCG yr round.
I do believe that if you use high doses 2,000ius + per week for a very long time this could be true,,,,, maybe??? never had no need to try that and that's not what we use HCG for.
We use small amounts during cycle to help minimize shutdown and help speed up recovery and I'm sure in my mind we don't have anything to worry about as far as desensitization goes.
Hope this helps and after this gets seen I'll copy and paste it into my sticky .............11
__________________
__________________
Ive done many cycles that did not include HCG in my early days, hell I didn't even know what PCT was. This was WAY before the internet so all my info was from freinds and the few books that were around.
I've done cycles that ended with just using HCG the 2wks after my last testE shot and saw results from that(1,000ius 2xwk/ 2wks). IMO never go over 2,000ius per week.
But in 2005 I started using small amounts of HCG throughout the cycle with much better results. The theory behind this is to give constant stimulation throughout the cycle and not let your own test production stop, or at least minimize it. Ive also noticed my sex drive stayed constant while on HCG even when using Tren or Npp/Deca and doing very long cycles. This is without a doubt the best way to run it and IMO leads to better overall gains, reason is not only are you using artificial Test/AAS but you are still producing your own, to me this makes since.
There are 3 ways to use this method. note: always use the LEAST amount that you can get results from.
1) 100ius ED starting after wk1 and continued through cycle and for 4-18days after last AAS shot depending on the ester length (prop 3days - testE 14days - test Cyp 18days). Always make the last HCG shot on day ester clears.
2) 250-300ius EOD or 2xwk and (same as above)
3) 500ius E5D starting after wk1 and (same as above)
Ive done all and really can't say one is better, with #2-3 you won't go through as many needles
but all have worked well for me.PCT ( post cycle therapy )
Key word here is POST, meaning after the cycle is over and that means after all AAS esters have cleared your system not after your final shot.
HCG IS NOT FOR PCT IT IS FOR PRE-PCT, the time during your cycle and after last shot of AAS while esters are clearing. PCT starts on DAY4 after your last HCG shot. The reason for this is when you inject HCG you will get a spike several hours after shot and then again 48-72 hours later, after this final spike is when you want to start your PCT. Again HCG is not used for PCT.
Most my PCTs have looked like this. Starting on day4 after last HCG shot. Start your clomid and nolva on the same day but always run your nolva at least a 1-2 wks longer
3-4wks of clomid @ 50mg ed (in my early days Ive used higher amounts but feel its not needed)
5-6wks of nolva @ 40mg ed 2wks and 20mg ed for remainder
IMO a PCT should last at least 4-6wks+
Also there seems to be great alternative to clomid/nolva these days, some are available here on OLM.
Here's another PCT that a member here uses with good success.
Now there's a couple different protocols in running toremifene. I like to run mine a little longer than some as I believe it is beneficial, also because of toremifene's safety profile. Also it has been determined that 120mg torem is roughly equivelent to 40mg nolvadex. Here's how I'm running mine.
week 1: 120mg
week 2: 120mg
week 3: 90mg
week 4: 90mg
week 5: 60mg
week 6: 60mg
week 7: 60mg
Hope this helps.
Nixon[/QUOTE]
Other info you will need.
Always use Bac water to mix your HCG, it will last up to 60 days in the fridge when BW is used. I never read any reason to store HCG p0wder in fridge. A cool dark place is fine.
With smaller amps/vials of under 5000ius ie 1500iu amps the water that comes with it is fine(up to 30days)
Always use an insulin needle for injecting, size of slinpin does not matter but I use 29/30g 1cc.
MIXING
Use the bacwater, draw out 1cc BW(use a 1cc slinpin #10-100) and slowly add to p0wder and gently swirl till mixed. Then draw out mixture(if in an amp. If already in a vial just refrigerate) with 1.5" needle and inject into vial or leave in syringe and refrigerate. If you add 1cc to 5000ius then every 10mark on your 1cc slinpin will be 500ius of HCG (use E5D) if you want to use 250ius EOD then mix 2cc's BW into p0wder and then every 10mark will have 250ius.
INJECTING
You can do either IM in small lean muscles like delts, tri's etc.
Or subQ between skin/fat and muscle. Pinch skin and pull up and inject HCG into open pocket between. Use a .5" insulin needle.
__________________
Now like I said this is my personal opinion on HCG.
Can you get by without HCG, sure.
Can you get by without PCT, sure
Can you build muscle without AAS, yes.
But if your going to spent your hard earned $$ on AAS, food and training then at least spend a little extra on trying to keep as much of those gains as possible and make recovery as easy as possible................11
This is where I originally got my HCG info from. He was member of a board I used to frequent and a TRT doctor
My PCT Protocol
Since I've been hanging out here a bit lately, I've been getting quite a few emails from guys wanting individualized advice on their cycles. In the first place, I cannot design cycles, nor do I prescribe steroids (just ancillary medications). That would be a violation of my Oath as a physician, and DEA law to boot. Also, obviously I cannot afford to give away free Consultations. So, I'll post my PCT Protocols here, for anyone who may choose to use them.
Also, I'm just running to catch a plane for Las Vegas, attending the American Academy of Anti-Aging Medicine International Conference. I guess they are supposed to publish an article I wrote on how to administer TRT for men. Wish me luck!
Here it is:
I advise my AAS patients to use small amounts of HCG (250IU to 500IU) two days each week, right from the beginning of the cycle. This serves to maintain testicular form and function. It makes more sense to me to keep the horse in the barn, so to speak, then to have to chase it across three counties later on. I am also a big fan of maintaining estrogen within physiological ranges. Both therapies have been shown to hasten recovery.
Any more than 500IU of HCG per day causes too much aromatase activity. Some feel aromatase is actually toxic to the Leydig cells of the testes. You are then inducing primary hypogonadism (which is permanent) while treating steroid-induced secondary (hypogonadotrophic) hypogonadism (which is temporary--hopefully).
If 250IU or 500IU on two days each week isn’t enough to stave off testicular atrophy, then I recommend using it more days each week (as opposed to taking larger doses). In fact, I wouldn’t mind having a guy use 250IU per day ALL THROUGH the cycle. Those that have tell me they thus avoid that edgy, burned-out feeling they usually get. They also say they simply feel better each day. Subjective reports, to be sure, but they are hard not to appreciate. Especially when HCG is so inexpensive.
The testes are then ready, willing and able to again produce testosterone at the end of the cycle. LH levels rise fairly rapidly, but endogenous testosterone production is limited by lack of use. I also want to make sure a SERM, such as Clomid or Nolvadex, is at effective serum dosage (around 100mg QD for Clomid, 20-40mg QD for Nolvadex) when serum androgen levels drop to a concentration roughly equal to 200mg of testosterone per week. That is when androgenic inhibition at the HP no longer dominates over estrogenic antagonism with respect to inducing LH production. Of course, if the fellow has been doing Clomid or Nolvadex all along the way (and I now prefer Nolvadex over Clomid, due to the possibility of negative sides from the Clomid), he is all set to simply continue it at the end (no need to switch from one to the other). BTW, I see no evidence of any benefit in using BOTH SERM’s at the same time. I used to think a couple of weeks of the SERM was enough; now I like to see an entire month after the last shot of AAS (and migration of long to short esters as the cycle matures). Tapering the SERM is probably a good idea during the last week, as well.
I want my patients to stop taking HCG within a week after the end of the cycle. The testosterone production it induces will further inhibit recovery, as will using Androgel, or any other testosterone preparation, while in recovery. There is no escaping this, as there is no such thing as a “bridge”. Just because you are not inhibiting the HPTA for the entire 24 hours does not mean you are not suppressing it at all. IOW, you can’t “fool” the body—it is smarter than you are.
I like Arimidex during the cycle (in fact, consider use of an AI while taking aromatisables a necessity) but it ABSOLUTELY should not be used post cycle (even though it has been shown to increase LH production) because the risk of driving estrogen too low, and therefore further damaging an already compromised Lipid Profile, is too great (this also drives libido back into the ground—and we don’t want that, do we?).
All this is meant to get my guys through recovery as fast as possible (the real goal, yes?). So far, all of them who have tried it have reported they are recovering faster than when they have tried other protocols.
Little HCG experiment I did
As most of you know I'm on testE and HCG year round along with other gear throughout the year.
The last couple years I've seen posts and read stuff about guys worrying or claiming that using HCG for long periods of time desensitizes you to HCG and will shut you down permanently.
I never believed this to be true especially at the low doses we use.
Recently I decided to do a little experiment on myself (love being a guinea pig)
Back in Oct I quit using HCG but of course stayed on gear, within a week my boys started to atrophy and stayed that while I was off, goal was 3 months. After I was convinced this theory was false I got back on using 500ius EOD for 4 shots then back on my normal E5D rutine. After my 3rd shot my boys were back at full speed and remain that way.
My sticky is based on using small amounts of HCG throughout your cycle no matter the length right up to PCT but for you guys that are on full time IMO you have nothing to worry about using HCG yr round.
I do believe that if you use high doses 2,000ius + per week for a very long time this could be true,,,,, maybe??? never had no need to try that and that's not what we use HCG for.
We use small amounts during cycle to help minimize shutdown and help speed up recovery and I'm sure in my mind we don't have anything to worry about as far as desensitization goes.
Hope this helps and after this gets seen I'll copy and paste it into my sticky .............11
__________________
__________________
Last edited:
